Database Name: dbwzecoixet92g thefunhabit – A Dad’s Path

#64 – The Fun Habit: A New Approach to Finding Happiness

Today we speak with Michael Rucker, Author of the upcoming book The Fun Habit: How the Pursuit of Joy and Wonder Can Change Your Life. Michael is a charter member of the International Positive Psychology Association and has been a follower of positive psychology for years. He realized that chasing happiness can actually make you less happy and can lead to mental illness after losing his younger brother and being told he needed a hip replacement. This inspiring conversation will hopefully get you in the “Fun Habit.”

We discuss:

  • Specific ideas to improve your base level of happiness and well-being.

  • How giving your kids more autonomy can help with their joy.

  • How to create “fun habits.”

  • The importance of focusing on activities that bring joy rather than seeking happiness directly.

  • The potential negative effects of focusing on happiness during times of change or loss.

  • The psychological research supporting the idea of having a bias toward joyful activities. 

Like this episode? You can check out more of our Dad Podcasts.

Will: Hello and welcome to another episode of A Dad’s Path Podcast. I’m Will Braunstein. Today we’re here with Mike Rucker, author of the upcoming book, The Fun Habit. You can actually pre-order it today. We’ll discuss some of the ideas found in the book and dial in on his parenting chapter in particular, which is worth its weight and gold, so highly recommended. The entire book was a great read, so I’m excited to have Mike here. You can check him out on the Again, you can pre-order his book on Amazon or wherever books are found. Welcome Michael, thanks for joining us.

Michael: Thanks so much for having me, Will.

Will: Yes, I’m really excited about this. I love the book and I’m really excited to share some of the ideas from it with our audience and take it from there. Maybe we could start, why did you write the book?

Michael: I’m a charter member of the International Positive Psychology Association that was founded in 2008, 2009. Since that time have really been a follower of positive psychology and really tried to optimize my life for happiness. That was working great during that period up until about 2016, at which time I unfortunately and quite suddenly lost my younger brother.

He had a pulmonary embolism, knocked me off my feet, and about two months later the two things aren’t correlated. I had mitigated my anxiety up until that point quite successfully through amateur endurance athletics, primarily running and triathlons. Found out that probably due to an injury I had advanced osteoarthritis that just

crept up. I had run my fastest half marathon ever a couple of months before finding that out. Then was basically told at the age of I believe 45 that I had to have a hip replacement.

When you have a hip replacement that young, it means you don’t want to run again, primarily because these are now car parts in you and they have a limited lifespan. If you get it later in life, there’s not as much risk. When you get it that young you really need to move to cycling and swimming so that you don’t put wear and tear on it, so that you don’t need to get a revision. These two unfortunate events created a space where I would rightfully wasn’t that happy, but I had over-optimized my life so much up until that point to be happy that I was like, I can will myself out of this.

Long story short, to answer your question, the more that I tried to chase happiness, the less happy I was and I wanted to figure out why. That started the journey and serendipitously a lot of research during that time was coming forth to suggest that people that were overly concerned with happiness were actually paradoxically making themselves unhappy to the point of mental illness. I think I call that serendipitous because I got access to that right when I was at a probably breaking point and was wow, okay, so if the tools of the trade of happiness aren’t really appropriate right now and actually probably counter-productive and harmful, what can I do?

I dug into, because I just finished my dissertation at the time, so I was still hungry and had access to PubMed and ways to access the psychological research, and found that having agency and autonomy over your life taking back control because so many adults habituate their behavior is actually a great way to pull yourself out. It doesn’t require you to optimize towards an emotional state. It’s really just a way to say, Hey, in this moment I’m going to have a bias towards living joyfully in whatever activity that I’m doing, and it doesn’t really matter whether or not I feel happy in that moment.

This is true for people that are going through divorce, people that are experiencing loss, which could be the loss of a loved one like myself, but it could be people that are displaced. They’re moving or they’re, changing a job where there’s a cement amount of change. Trying to understand that actualize it, synthesize it means that happiness isn’t really an appropriate emotional response during that time.

Will: Yes, that’s paradoxical and counter-intuitive, if you chase the happiness you won’t find it. Then of course the idea is, well how do you find happiness? What’s the path? I know one thing you wrote about is when you’re having fun, there’s generally a couple aspects. I think you wrote bias toward action. You’re usually doing something, social often, things like that. Is more where you focus say, okay, I can’t be happy, I want to have fun or I do want to be happy. The way to do that is through having fun and these are the types of activities or are we looking at this the right way?

Michael: Yes, you’re exactly. The basic frame is a couple things. One is that happiness, at least the way we define it in the western world, is an evaluation by definition. It requires introspection, which almost is always going to take you out of the moment anyways, where fun is an action orientation. When you’re having fun, you’re in the moment doing what you like. It’s pretty easy, it’s a bowling choice. I’m either finding joy in the activity that I’m doing or I’m not.

There are going to be some activities that aren’t meant to be joyful. There’s hard tasks, I know that your audience’s dads primarily, I meant there are going to be times in our life where we’re dealing with a family situation that isn’t meant to be fun. I’m not trying to prescribe toxic positivity. I think emotion makes us emotionally healthy. What I am suggesting is that a lot of us habituate our behavior and that when we’re not taking a deliberate approach to how we spend our time, that oftentimes life just passes us by.

Then also to circle back to the first point, if we’re always worried about why we’re not happy and not taking action, that preservation on where we want to be versus where we are and just always having awareness of that gap ends up bleeding into our identity. If happiness is over on the horizon and we’re not where we want to be, then subconsciously we start to identify as unhappy. Even if we don’t really realize it in our conscious mind. Over time that will start to cement. I’m not where I want to be. Generally, in real-time, we can be where we want to be if we just deliberately design our lives around trying to figure out what it is that does light us up.

Will: That’s awesome. One of your brilliant ideas from the book is auditing your calendar for fun. You talk about, Hey, just look at it, see where you had fun over the past year, and do more of that. I think you could do the opposite too and say, look where you really didn’t like it, and do less of that.

Michael: You’re spot on. There’s a few things to unpack there. One, generally it’s better to create space if you can. I think, starting with step two of what you just said, where is it that these activities are things that I just don’t enjoy anymore? As simple as that sounds, again, as adults we tend to build in routines because it’s easy and so challenging those routines, even just one time can be really illuminating. Oh my gosh, these two hours a week, I really don’t like doing it and I’ve just done this because this is what we do.

That might be plopping down on the couch on a Wednesday cause that’s your hard day and not realizing that you’re just binge-watching television that doesn’t light you up. For some people, it could be doom scrolling. That was certainly something that I fell victim to during the pandemic. I was, Oh my goodness, after simply being mindful of how I’m spending my time, it was three and a half hours on different news sites, which is just not a good use of time. Reading essentially the same news written in different ways.

Finding that space and reorganizing and taking out the things that you don’t like is absolutely the first step. Then reintegrating things that you do like, and that’s where curiosity can actually be fun, especially if you enjoy that kind of thing, or it could be connecting to something that you really are passionate about. It doesn’t necessarily need to be a variety. There is some science to suggest that having a mosaic throughout your week can lead to more fun. For some people, that’s not necessarily true. Maybe it’s somebody that wants to reconnect with music. Let’s say the guitar could be that, you’re just finding three hours to yourself to reengage with that thing that you love.

Will: Makes a lot of sense. That really resonates with me personally, on times where I’ve been the most content or happiest or having the most fun, it’s when I’m planned. If when I’m deliberate with my time, to your point, if you doom scroll for an hour and a half, you feel bad about yourself. If you plan it, say, all right, I’m going to take an hour and just rot my brain because I feel like it, then it’s fine. You can just schedule so many things, but it’s being deliberate with your time and being deliberate with what you’re doing.

I assume then that’s where you can get to the, these are the kinds of actions I want to take. Getting biased toward actions. If I’m going to be sitting in front of my computer, it’s going to be hard to create fun, I need to be with people. I need to be doing, E, Y, and Z and again auditing.

Michael: Yes, I think you can start to see what works for you. There’s various variables you can play with. Am I in the right environment? Let’s say you have to work, which is most of us do, but it’s like, am I enjoying myself the most in solitude? Which might be true for an introvert, or Am I having more enjoyment if I’m doing it in a coffee shop? Things like that. Just subtle shifts. For others, it’s, “Does this activity still suit me? Are the people that I’ve surrounded myself around really the ones that I want to be with and feel fulfilled with?” The last one being activities, of course. Am I doing the things that I want to do with my time? Some of those are going to have constraints. Obviously, if there’s some problematic issues in the family unit that are hard to solve, those can be sticky problems. Again, not trying to prescribe toxic positivity, but a lot of the times just simple reframes can change something that just seemed like time was passing you by to something that can be really interesting.

Will: I really like that toxic positivity idea, and you’re very clear in the book that that’s not the right approach. Not everything is sunshine and flowers, and that’s okay. Reframing is a great solution to some of those times where things aren’t awesome. I really appreciate. It’s a real look at life but saying, “Hey, here’s some ways to have fun. Here are ways that you can optimize for happiness,” which is great because that’s what we want to do and that’s what we want to do for our kids too as dads.

Michael: I think if you look at it as equity as well, these are the building blocks to living a joyful life. Instead of wasting time worrying about it too much, being able to create these experiences, any road of mastery. At first, it might seem a little bit clunky or whatever word works for you in that regard, but you’ll start to develop those skills just like any other skill. For most people, we’re generally not in a steady state. We’re either on a downward spiral or an upward spiral.

The idea is how can you create an environment and a timeline for yourself where all of these things are building equity towards a joyful life. That’s the key aspect. A lot of us have either through the puritan work ethic or a sense of duty as a parent, have relinquished control and just passively go through based on the needs of others.

Co-creating this, not necessarily being selfish or completely falling victim to hedonism, you still have a say in how your time is spent.

A lot of times it’s just that simple act of reclaiming the fact that you do have a voice, obviously in an empathetic way. For so many of us, we just– especially if we feel burnt out for whatever it is coming out of the pandemic because you have a hard job or because of the family environment, there’s some issues there, again, just understanding that you still have some control can be that little hook that pulls you out of whatever it is, [unintelligible 00:12:39] despair or even just boredom and loneliness.

Will: Absolutely. Again, being deliberate, taking action. I want to jump to some of your topics with kids because you did that so well in your book and-

Michael: Oh, thank you.

Will: -I learned a lot. As you just brought up, one is you can have some rules of fun for playing with your kids. That was a big reframe for me. You can follow their lead, but also you need to have fun with it too. If it’s not an activity you want to do, say that, communicate it. That teaches a lot of lessons too.

Michael: Yes, absolutely. I think the common metaphor is the parent on a park bench watching their child play, mindlessly scrolling on their smartphone, almost questioning their existence in that moment when there is a whole host variety of activities that you could co-create together and do something where you’re at least enjoying yourself a little bit more.

An example that I give in my own life is when my daughter was younger, we had her in gymnastics like most parents do. You find an activity that will at least get them active because what else do you do on your weekend. I was sitting on the bench watching her do somersault and that became a routine activity where I was essentially just burning an hour, not really doing much at all. It dawned on me because I was in the midst of doing the research for this book.

I wasn’t eating my own dog food. Like, “Holy cow, this is not really a good use of my time. She’s certainly enjoying herself.” I went to her and said, “Hey, the whole idea here–” Obviously I talked in a way that she could understand, but I’m paraphrasing, “What would you think if we, instead of doing gymnastics, took a dance class together?” Because I knew at the time she was really into this Disney thing called Descendants, which is a musical show about– It’s actually really interesting. All the villains’ kids– I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it, but captain Hook’s kid, and Maleficent’s kid, they are all cohort together. It’s an interesting series.

Anyways, she said yes. To my delight, we ended up taking a dance class together, so I got to enjoy dancing with her. It wasn’t that much more expensive. It wasn’t really from a place of privilege where the price of gymnastics was now 4x. I think it was 10 more dollars per session. At the time I was still rehabilitating an injury that I had, so we had medically appropriate moves for me. My daughter and I made these amazing memories. I traded out an hour of just wasting my time into co-creating this amazing experience with her just by a subtle reframe, asking her what would be fun for both of us to do.

Eventually, she aged out of it, just to be honest, with your listeners. Now she doesn’t want to dance with dad, but I will always have those memories to look back on. She smiles too when she thinks about it. She just doesn’t want to dance with her dad anymore. [chuckles]

Will: That’s a beautiful story and great example. I want to mention the name of your parenting chapter, just because I thought it was so meaningful. It was fun in parenting from bassinet to empty nest, which to me just boom to boom, it can go that fast. To your point, you found the time when your daughter was interested in dancing with you and they become teenagers well before they are officially teenagers. We have to take advantage while we can.

Michael: I know you had a previous guest on that talked about 18 Summers, and I love that frame. In the book, I talk a lot about time. I think if you think of time as a finite resource, it is super motivating. Whether that’s 168 hours in your week or 18 summers with your child before they, at least here in the States, become “adult”, using that and realizing that the fuse is burning can often motivate you to be like, “I really need to start creating some things that I can relish in the future.

A crux of my work, whether it’s parenting or just life in general comes from Broonie Ware’s Five Regrets of the Dying, and we know three of those are the fact that you didn’t take those opportunities when they were presented to you. Just being aware that we don’t have a lot of time with our kids is so important because it’s a great motivator to start to make the best use of your time.

Will: The best motivator. You’re totally right. You’re totally right. Those are the memories you’re going to look back on, which again goes to your point of, hey, don’t just sit there and don’t do something you don’t really enjoy. Find something you both can enjoy and create those memories together.

Michael: This is more anecdotal. I address it in the book, but most of the foundational work in the book is backed by research, and this one’s more observational. I think the parents that do that, that’s where you see kids want to go home for Easter and for Christmas holidays. It was the kids that didn’t really have that connection with their parents. It’s a cliche, but the Cat’s in the Cradle song, there is some truth in those lyrics. Being mindful of that, these are the times to create those connections becomes extremely important with regards to the longevity of your relationship with your kids as well.

Will: I like that. It’s so important. I think you cited some interesting research in your book about child-centric parents tended to be happier.

Michael: I think being a bit selfless– There’s ways to do it where you’re not necessarily giving all of yourself away either. Understanding that for most of us, we mindfully took on this responsibility and so that they are kids and we are parents, and allowing a little bit of grace goes an extremely long way. It’s the parents that feel all of parenting is really centered through the sense of duty, like, “This is just an additional job I need to do,” that burden of duty often leads to unhappy parents.

When you realize, “Yes, I can have my own life, but I’ve committed to per child 18 years of supporting their wellbeing until they leave the nest,” those tend to be the parents that are happier. That can just be a simple reframe. Again, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re like, “Wait, so to be happy I need to live a life of servitude?” Absolutely not. It just means that you start with them as the center and then move on, but that you can still have a sense of self.

Will: That’s key, having a sense of self. I think you talk about you time as well, having your own time. Do you have recommendations for how you can fit all that in or communicate with your partner on that or–

Michael: Yes, absolutely. I think it depends on what type of resources you have. An anecdote that I often bring up is, one of the things that we found that wasn’t fun for our family was bath time with our kids. For whatever reason, it always just blew up. Kids hated baths. This anecdote takes place when they were both of the age that they could bath together. When we put them in the bathtub, they would fight.

My wife and I just hated it to the point that we would pretty much not give them baths right up until bedtime. We weighed out who would be the martyr because we knew it was just not a fun activity for us. We weren’t in a financial position where we could get a nanny. We thought the idea of this intimate act, really just only getting a babysitter to give baths was weird until it wasn’t. We’re like, “Wait, why is it weird if you have a nanny, but it’s not weird if you can only afford a part-time babysitter?” We got over that hump. We hired someone to essentially babysit a little bit, but really just to outsource that chore. She’s amazing. Sometimes we still have her babysit. Her name’s Caitlin. They all had a blast because she was a fun person and that gave us the opportunity for my wife and I to now connect. Again here with regards to this “fun habit idea,” there were four of us that really hated that period of time.

We were able to architect it in a way where they were having a ton of fun and my wife and I were able to reconnect. Why that becomes important is that when you’re not mindful of those opportunities, you see a lot of partners in this divide-and-conquer mindset. Forget that there was a reason that they partnered in the first place. Making those opportunities to really have a relationship outside of the confines of parenting become extremely important. Especially if you want to keep that connection.

Will: Right on. You just said two really poignant ideas. One is look at stuff you hate, you really don’t like doing and you don’t need to reframe it. If there’s a way to just not do it or to find a better solution, there sometimes is. I had something similar with carpooling or dropping the kids off at school and picking them up and you choose where you spend your money and for me, it was worth a little bit more to have some help there.

Even if it meant, something else isn’t going to get as much because that helped me and not just happiness, but productivity and things of that nature. I think that’s really important because there’s a lot of stuff you have to do when you have kids, but if there are things you really dislike and there are ways to minimize those, gosh, good for you.

Michael: Generally a little creativity can solve the money issue. Just doing a child swap, that’s another huge win-win because oftentimes kids can self-police, especially after the ages of six or seven. I think toddlers it gets a little bit dicey, but if your kids above the age of six, having your friends watch them for one night and then trading, so you don’t have the burden of childcare ruin your date night.

That can be a way where it’s not an additive expense. It’s not going to work for everything but people that bristle. Well I would love to do that, but that comes from a place of privilege. Oftentimes create solutions that don’t require money at all.

Will: It’s a great idea. The other point you brought up a second ago was that allows you to connect with your partner. When you talk to couples who separate, who divorce, who have kids, often it is something along those lines where, “Oh, we were just so focused on the kids, we just didn’t focus on each other” and you need to, that’s how relationships work. They need to be fed or they die and there’s a lot of stress on relationship when you have kids obviously because you’re trying to learn something new. They’re trying to learn something. There’s a lot happening, a lot of changes.

Michael: Alignment. I think sometimes bad things happen to great people and I think over the course of adolescence you’re just going to mature as an adult. Being able to understand those changes in a cumulative sense and share with that, that’s where love lives. If you both evolve in separate spaces, oftentimes it’s just bad happenstance that really breaks up the relationship because you do become foreign to each other as you just described, and it’s not even like it was meant to happen. It just, again, not being deliberate about those types of things can backfire unfortunately.

Will: Absolutely. It’s challenging because you have a child and right at first especially, that “season of your life” is so busy you’re not sleeping. There’s just a lot and things do calm down eventually for those listening, but, again, we’re talking about your kids grow, you want to make sure you’re having fun with them and you’re having time with them. You’re having your you time. You need to invest in your partner or that relationship will not flourish and then I want to talk about friendship a little bit because that’s another area of where you can have fun with someone else and I think that’s important and can be lost when you become a dad or become a parent.

Michael: There was just a really interesting study that’s making a news cycle this week about how difficult in particular it is for men especially to have those types of relationships. Let’s get into it.

Will: No, I think it’s interesting because we all feel it’s a problem. You’re reading about it in the news, it’s a problem, we need to make more friends. During COVID it was certainly more challenging. Now we’re knocking wood out of that, friendship plays a role in your happiness I’d assume.

Michael: Oh absolutely. We know that. I think if you look at it from a psychological standpoint, it’s clear that loneliness is one of the biggest correlators to poor physiological health. Especially if you find yourself in a place where you’re feeling lonely connecting with friends is so important, again, especially coming out of the pandemic.

Will: You have thoughts on in person connecting versus phone versus how to make those better connections or whether–

Michael: I think we know that intimacy that comes within person is important. With that said, my best friend lives in San Francisco so the best we can do is connecting through technology. I wouldn’t want to villainize that because those relationships that have longevity tend to be some of the most trusted or we can share true rapport and not necessarily have that cognitive load of, am I going to say the wrong thing? That said, one of the reasons that I bring it up in the context of fun is that if you organize around things that you really like, engaging in that activity doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to have that level of intimacy.

You might have a high school or college friend, and so in the book I talk about my wife essentially setting me up with friends that concerts because for me, live music is something that really lights me up. I had tried going by myself a couple times when we first moved here to North Carolina, and it just wasn’t an enjoyable experience by myself for me personally because I’m an extrovert. Just having some really cool people to go see shows with, even though I don’t have that type of history with them meant a lot. It was like, okay, the world’s all right.

Will: That’s an awesome framework there because we don’t all have our close friends either. We might not still be in touch with them or they might be far away to your point and if you think about the memories you’ve made with your close friends growing up, that’s years and years and years of hanging out and you have kids, that’s not going to happen anymore. You’re not going to meet someone in that same way and have those same experiences of course, but what you’re saying is right on saying, Hey, what are some of your interests? You can connect that way and it doesn’t need to be the biggest bonding experience in the world. It can be a low pressure just hang out thing.

Michael: Two strategies that I talk about. One is with those close friends, if it becomes problematic because you’ve moved away trying to figure out a ritual that you guys can do annually or at some interval that makes sense for the group and making sure that that happens becomes extremely important. For me it’s organized around fantasy football because that’s what me and my high school friends like to do, but we make sure to connect and that keeps us connected throughout the year because we all get to see each other, but then that makes all of the electronic communication that much more intimate because we know each other exists and that one week, a year that we do all get to connect, “get the hall passes from our wives,” becomes extremely special, and once you ritualize it, it usually doesn’t go away.

For the folks that find themselves in a new place, like okay, that’s great, but I don’t really know where to get started within my community. Perhaps they just moved there like I described, generally you can find affinity groups if you’re just a little bit creative. Facebook is a great avenue as pedestrian as that sounds, and then, figure out what it is you like and almost always within a major town you’re going to be able to find a group.

It’s going to be hokey the first couple weeks when we call it storming, norming and forming phase, but ultimately folks that use that technique will connect with people that have a similar interest. What that does is circumvent the need for that level of intimacy because you already have this longitudinal experience within a certain affinity that you like. There’s going to be that connection because of that shared interest.

Will: Right on. That’s a great idea. The other thing I would add to that is, dads at schools, friends of my kids and just people I’ll run into at the school often don’t have those same connections, but do have the enthusiasm. I do want to grab a drink. Sometimes you just want to grab a drink with someone and it’s okay if it’s not the most intimate things you don’t know each other that well but–

Michael: I think it’s tough, obviously easier said than done, but study after study indicates that we all believe that other people don’t want to be pestered, but nine times out of 10 and again, that’s not true science, but what is true science is in the majority when people do make that connection and reach out to someone that they think might feel bothered because they said hi, it’s almost always a positive experience.

There’s a really interesting study that was done on Subways where generally you feel you never want to bother the person next to you, but these participants were primed, no matter what, go ahead and say hi. They surveyed the folks afterwards, both the participant and the person that was “bothered,” a majority of them said that the experience was much more pleasurable than they had just sat in solitude, and so that same logic can be applied to anything.

Just say hi and if it’s awful, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I would never want to hang out with this person.” Then you move on, but I guess what I’m saying is as uncomfortable it is you have a high probability of likely making a connection if you just put your good foot forward.

Will: Totally. I’ve seen and experienced the same thing and then even when it comes to once you’ve connected with someone, if you want to hang out with somebody dad or lonely say, “Gosh, no one wants to hang out with me, no one’s reaching out to me.” It’s just like, “Hey, are you reaching out to your friends?” Are you, and it’s like, “Oh well, maybe I’ll try that.” To your point, the hit rate you get there is usually pretty amazing. It’s usually people. Yes. Thank you for reaching out. I do want to hang out. I do need a drink. I do need to go for a run or whatever it is or hang out, just grab a coffee.

Michael: Yes, that’s exactly right. You’re just talking about a subtle reframe. Essentially you’re in the same boat as they are and then you are just now flipping the script and so you’re not going to be actualized as a hero but essentially you are the hero and that story because you made it happen.

Will: Yes. That’s interesting. One last topic I want to end on is we’re getting to be into the gift season here, the holidays coming up. What kind of gifts would you suggest instead of just filling your house with stuff, as my wife likes to say, [laughs], what kind of gifts can optimize for fun for parenting? You have any ideas along those lines?

Michael: Yes, I haven’t been asked that question, so I appreciate the prompt. I’ve certainly looked at it and so if you’re looking to have more fun, what the science suggests is things that are experiential. If you’re getting it for someone else, whether that be a friend or for your kids, obviously understand what they would have fun because you don’t necessarily want to create a forced fun intervention. Like, “Hey, I thought you would love a football game,” and your kid’s like, “I hate football,” [laughs] whatever.

Understanding what they’re into and then hopefully you are into as well and then creating an experiential gift around that I think really gives not just goodwill in that moment, but then creates these memories that both of you can relish you or the group of people can relish in the future. Generally, that is my kind of go-to is that experience over things generally yields more fun in the long term.

Will: Makes a lot of like puzzles, games, things you can do together of that nature.

Michael: If you are really searching, I heard there’s this great book that people would love as a gift.


Will: That is right. That is right Michael. You have to check out The Fun Habit. You do it. It really was a great read. This was a great conversation, Michael. I appreciate it.

Michael: Oh, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun.

Will: You guys should check out You should check out his book on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, wherever you can preorder it called The Fun Habit, and just have some more fun in your life. Create the habit. I like it. Thanks, Michael. Take care.

Michael: Thank you.