Database Name: dbwzecoixet92g sagefamilypodcast – A Dad’s Path

#69 – Raising Happy Children: Meeting Both Yours and Their Needs


Will interviews Rachel Rainbolt, host of the popular Sage Family podcast. They delve into topics such as clearing away the mental clutter of shoulds and should nots in parenting, the art of parenting, and the importance of connecting with your child. They also discuss the challenges of managing anxiety in kids, the importance of co-parenting, and what makes for successful parenting focused on personal growth and well-being. Join them as they explore the ins and outs of parenting and the role of being a parent in today’s world. We discuss:

  • Balancing your intuition with your child’s needs

  • Art of parenting and seeking help when needed

  • Importance of being aware of emotions and investing in personal growth

  • Co-parenting and establishing boundaries and common values

  • Acknowledging children are born whole

  • Supporting children in dealing with anxiety and expanding their world

  • Being a successful parent through personal growth and well-being.


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Will Braunstein, A Dad’s Path: Hello, and welcome to another episode of A Dad’s Path podcast. I’m Will Braunstein. Today, we’re here with Rachel Rainbolt, host of the popular Sage Family podcast and sagefamily.com. They’re on a mission to help parents with gentle parenting, natural homeschooling, and simple living. On their site, you can find lots of great free information, like I said, also their podcasts, as well as books, courses, and coaching. We’re fortunate to get some of Rachel’s expertise today. Thank you for joining us and welcome, Rachel.

Rachel Rainbolt, Sage Family Podcast: Oh, it’s an honor. Thank you so much for having me, Will.

Will: Awesome. Going to your gentle parenting, natural homeschooling, and simple living that seems like three main things on your site. The simple living– do you have kids? How does that work?

Rachel: [laughs] Yes. It’s funny because it started off through the parenting lens where most people when they hear minimalism, they think of stuff. That’s certainly part of it. Research shows that the more objects there are in a space, the higher anxiety goes, the more stress kids get, and the more problematic behaviors that you tend to see with children in the space. Really, I came at it from the parenting lens. What I found most helpful was really clearing away all the clutter of the parenting shoulds and should nots and what I thought I was supposed to do and really that work of clearing away all of that parenting clutter and just connecting with this human in front of me and really hearing my own intuition and internal wisdom, that is really where I found that sweet spot of parenting and really just being in peaceful connection with this human that I get to share my life with.

Will: That’s beautiful. That makes a lot of sense. Can you give an example or two of the type of mental clutter that when you got rid of, you’re like, Ah, now I’m connecting better, now I’m in a place I want to be?

Rachel: Yes. For example, if one of my kids was– My first, of course, because we have to learn so many lessons with our first [chuckles] and make so many mistakes along the way. Trial by fire.

Will: Yes, sorry.

Rachel: My first would be having a really big feeling and communicating that with me crying, throwing a tantrum, whatever you want to call it. All these messages would flood into my mind about they’re trying to control me or I can’t respond lovingly, I need to focus on the behavior and use rewards and punishments. I really want to do this right and I want to be the best parent I can be and what’s everyone thinking about me, and really pausing and letting that wave of clutter of all these messages that we accidentally absorb and pick up along the way as we move through our lives, just letting those move through me and just connecting with this human in front of me and getting to know them really well and showing up in the way that feels best for the two of us.

That’s really an example of how I’m able to be the best parent that I can be by decluttering all of those messages and just connecting with this human and figuring out what it is that this person needs, what’s going on for them, and how can we connect and move forward together in a peaceful way.

Will: I like that. That’s part of the art of parenting I think where at the end of the day, you need to rely on your own intuition like you’re saying. Then, where the other end is there are parts where you’re going to be trying and trying and you feel like you’re banging your head against the wall, and that’s a time where you should ask for help. There’s also nothing wrong with that, but it is that balance of making sure that you’re in touch with what’s right for you, right?

Rachel: Yes. Getting clear on what does this human need in front of me, what does this child need, and what do I need? Really, everything boils down to this Venn diagram. There’s a circle of what the kid needs, circle of what I need, you might have multiple children, so there might be multiple circles and they all overlap, and you find your way to the middle. What is the unmet need that this kid is having in this moment, and how can I help them to meet that in a way that still honors my needs?

Will: That’s a great way of thinking about it. I haven’t thought about Venn diagrams like that.

[laughter]

Will: That’s interesting. Because when you start including your kids, you’re also going to overlap them a little bit because they’ll have needs from each other and you and your partner or your wife if you’re married. That’s a nice way to visualize it, I like that. Gentle parenting. That’s another area that I like to hear about and I strive for. The place I like to maybe probe first is when you need an immediate versus a patient response because it’s easy with, Okay, put that down, can you please put that down versus your one kid smacking the other requires different– Can we start there maybe on how that relates to gentle parenting?

Rachel: Yes. I think it’s really important to understand that when people hear gentle parenting, a lot of times they think of moms, and a lot of times they think of this ethical or moral case for what’s the right way to treat another human being. I actually love to come at this from the evidence-based in terms of what works. If one of your kids is about to hit another one of your kids, what actually addresses that more immediately and quickly and more effectively, really it boils down to what’s effective, is being curious about what is this kid’s need in this moment? What’s going on for them that they’re at this point where this is their only resource to draw on, their only skill to fall back to?

When you can come at it from that place of curiosity, empathy, and non-judgement, that’s really the most effective piece because if they’re hitting their sibling and you just say, “Oh, well, no screen time for an hour,” that doesn’t really teach them what it is that led them to that position to begin with, and they’re going to keep repeating it over and over again. When you can get curious about what’s going on for this kid that’s leading them to this place, and how can I help them with that, how can I help build that skill or address that need, that is really effective and it reduces the number of times that, for example, that kid is hitting their sibling.

Will: That makes a lot of sense. I like the empathy aspect. Empathy and curiosity, like you’re saying, those are areas that you intuitively know you need to address as opposed to going to the punishment route or that’s just the way to, like you’re saying, stem it so it doesn’t happen over and over again, but really listen to what your child is trying to say, why are they communicating like that.

Rachel: Yes, because it will keep happening if you don’t address the reason why it’s happening. You could say like, “No iPad for an hour,” but that doesn’t really address what the issue, why they came to that place to begin with. When you get curious, when you get empathetic, when you get creative what’s going on here, and how can we proactively address that need, then it stops happening. It’s just more yes, there’s this aspect of it that it feels really good because this is how you would want to be treated in a relationship with another human, but also, it’s just really effective from a practical standpoint as a parent, especially a parent of three, especially of three kids that I was homeschooling.

I only have so much energy, and I need to be very efficient with that energy.

Will: Absolutely, yes. It always strikes me when I feel tired or overwhelmed. Well, I’ve got two, I don’t have three, I don’t have four.

[laughter]

Will: Can always be louder in the farmhouse, so to speak. Beyond, I guess, gentle parenting is getting your child to would you say act in a proper way, does it address diet at all or eating if you’re trying to get them to try new foods or things like that?

Rachel: Gentle parenting is a way of showing up in relationship with other human beings where we’re not trying to control the other person so much as we are being very conscious in how we are showing up in that relationship, and how we show up really changes the tenor of everything, of how everything shakes out. Acknowledging that we can’t really control another human being or manipulate them into doing exactly what you want to do per se we would think about. For example, say trying new foods is a value for your family. What can I do to promote that value in my family, to role model it, to encourage it, to set up the environment?

I would be filling my kitchen with a variety of foods from different cultures and with different flavor profiles and I would be serving up meals where there’s one thing I know that they like but then there are also some other things. I would be brave in front of them and trying things I’ve never tried and sometimes not liking them out loud, role modelling what to do when you have that experience. We’re still fostering our values and we’re really nurturing them and using them as a calibration for our compass in terms of what direction we want to go and where we want to invest our energies. We’re also clear on the fact that the person I can control in this equation is me.

Here’s my sphere of control, here’s all the things I can control, and it’s really about me, it’s about the environment, it’s about all of that as opposed to a focus on controlling the child, inputting A and hoping C comes out the other side because that’s actually very futile, that’s not how humans work. It’s incredibly frustrating as a parent if that’s the approach we’re trying to take because it doesn’t work.

Will: Absolutely. When we talk about what works, you used the word modelling, and that is such a key aspect to parenting, as we would say, unfortunately, so it makes it harder.

[laughter]

Rachel: Yes.

Will: I’d be curious if you’ve seen any particular habits. I know you’ve worked with a lot of parents that either started or stopped, created positive modeling for their kids. Have you seen something or what trends do you see there? What have you seen?

Rachel: I think self-care is a huge one. I know that’s a really broad term and it can mean so many things, but I am a huge advocate of frontloading and holding the space for the meeting of your needs at the start of the day so that you’re parenting throughout the day from a full cup as it were. I think that children, even neurodivergent children, even high-needs children, can really be scaffolded up to hold that space with you for the meeting of your needs. I think that’s a habit that is really worthwhile getting into and worth investing in.

Will: With self-care, if you don’t mind me just jumping in, I know it’s different for everyone, but are you finding things that you find more productive? Meditation, or yoga, or working out, or spending time on your email?

Rachel: Yes. Great question. I think it’s going to be different for everyone, but there are definitely some ingredients that I see in common that are really fruitful for everyone. Like some sort of physical movement practice, even if that’s just stretching, or I would do yoga in the morning and little ones would be crawling all over me and talking, and that’s totally fine. I would still show up on the mat and move my body regardless of how long that was that I would hold for myself to do that.

Reading. I would read some non-fiction in the morning and some fiction in the evening. I like to really bookend my days with some self-care, and they have a mirror at the start and the end of the day. I would read a little bit of non-fiction in the morning. That was really essential for me. I wanted to feel like my brain was alive and active, and so to start off, giving my brain something to chew on throughout the day was super important for me. Even if it’s one sentence. That’s fine, start somewhere because it’s more about holding the space for those habits as opposed to learning how to cure cancer in that time [laughs] in the morning when you’re reading that book.

Journaling, reading, hygiene, physical self-care, so whether that’s brushing your teeth or washing your face, show up for yourself in some way that’s meaningful for you every morning and every night. Like we were talking about role modeling before, that’s tremendous role modeling for your children, in addition to really important for being able to show up in the way you want for them. You have to show up for yourself first a little bit.

Will: Totally. You can’t pour from an empty cup, right, or empty pitcher.

Rachel: Yes.

Will: That totally resonates, and you’re right, it’s also a great way of modeling your self-care and saying, “Hey, you too child of mine, you’re acting crazy because you’re really hungry right now, or you were up way too late last night, or whatever it is.” I know you can communicate what self-care is, but one thing that I’ve seen more of just anecdotally is anxiety in kids.

Part of that might come from not being able to manage that in ways that we can, I would say, but I know you’re not a therapist or doctor, but what would you say about that? What have you seen? Do you have suggestions there?

Rachel: Yes. Well, I do have a master’s degree in marital and family therapy and I–

[laughter]

Will: Oh, okay, I stand corrected.

Rachel: I love this topic actually. Anxiety in kids is one of my favorite things to talk about. First and foremost, I’m going to call back to that thing we keep mentioning about role modeling because having a healthy relationship with anxiety within yourself is a huge piece for your child’s relationship with their anxiety. Working on the things that you need to work on to have a healthy relationship with anxiety, start there if you’re wondering how to help your child with anxiety. Two, don’t be afraid of feelings. A big part of gentle parenting is that we hold the space for our children’s feelings.

Feelings are not bad, feelings are not good, feelings are judgment neutral, ethically neutral, they just are what they are. We don’t control them, they come, and they move through us, and they go, so holding the space for your child’s feelings is a huge component of gentle parenting, and it’s something that really helps with anxiety because where anxiety gets crippling is actually not the anxiety itself, it’s our anxiety about anxiety. Because we’re afraid that anxiety is going to show up, we don’t do things, we don’t go places, we don’t show up for ourselves and for our lives.

Not being afraid of it when it shows up or any feeling shows up, communicating that you are bigger than the feeling that is inside of you, and this feeling is not going to kill you, and if we’re on the trail and you’re feeling afraid, we can sit here and just feel that together as long as you need. However that comes out is fine, I’ll hold the boundaries to make sure you’re not hurting yourself, others, or the environment, but other than that, let’s sit in this feeling together and I am calm and confident that you can move through this feeling and that it will pass.

Then, I think the third piece is reducing the accommodations. When we are afraid of our kids’ big feelings, we will often help their anxiety to shrink their world. Their anxiety will tell them they can’t do something and we will reinforce that by not supporting them in doing the thing, and then their world gets very, very small and they begin to contract significantly. We want to really help our children to expand and be able to live a meaningful and fulfilling life in whatever ways are significant to our kid. We do that by not over l-accommodating such that they miss out on life and all the good stuff. All that good stuff is over that hump of anxiety.

Will: Absolutely. In that example, if you’re trying to encourage your child to jump from a high ball pit or something like that somewhere and he doesn’t want to do it, how do you use general parenting to, not make him do it, but you’re trying to get him to do something he doesn’t want to do, so how does that work in practice?

Rachel: That’s such a great question. I think one, it needs to be something that the kid actually wants to do and is meaningful to the kid. Sometimes as parents we can get a bit confused on what’s something that I want my kid to do and what’s something that my kid actually wants to do. First and foremost, I like to try and really get to know my kid and be clear on what things they care about and what things matter to them. Maybe for a kid jumping in a ball pit isn’t a thing, but showing up to a playgroup where their best friend is, they feel scared every time it’s time to leave the house, and yet I know that every time they go at the end of the day they are so freaking happy that they went.

They are just sweaty, and exhausted, and have this permagrin smile on their face, and they tell their family at home every single thing that happened for two hours when we get home.

That’s something that I know is meaningful to that child and worth it. Then, when it’s time to leave the house,l and their anxiety gets really big and tells them that it’s too scary and they can’t do it, that’s when I will help them move through the experience by having a really consistent routine, creating this flow that helps them to move through it, and making clear that anxiety is welcome to come along on this play date with us. There’s plenty of space in the car, you can bring anxiety with you, you can tell me all the things anxiety has to say today while we drive there, and we’re still going to show up and do this thing.

Then, while we’re there, if you just want to sit by my side the whole time, you’re the boss of your body, that’s okay, but we’re going to show up for you and for this thing that I know is meaningful for you.

Will: Wow. That’s great. That’s a fantastic approach and answer because you can’t change your child’s view of anxiety, they feel what they feel, you can’t change their feelings, like you say, so sit with it and understand it. I don’t know if it’s irony per se, but it’s the same with us. When we get anxious, for me, it was helpful to say, “Between 1 and 10, how anxious am I right now?” Started doing that, and then very quickly it was, “Wait, what are these numbers like? Everything I’m anxious about, nothing happens.” If you start identifying [laughs] your anxiety, it’s just interesting.

Rachel: Yes. Personification and externalization are really helpful for all of us, but especially for kids because the world of pretend play is their world. When we can externalize that feeling of anxiety as their warrior or some other character that would really resonate with your child, this is the part of you whose job it is to keep you safe. The thing is, they’re like warriors from back in caveman days where there were tigers in the jungle that could bleep out and get you, so they don’t really always know, they’re not a good gauge of whether you’re actually in danger or whether you’re not in danger. Sometimes we can just hear what they have to say, and then let our warrior know, “Oh, actually there are definitely no tigers at the park.” [laughs] I might be uncomfortable, but I am going to be safe.

I think that’s an important distinction. Hear your anxiety out, and sometimes we can think through worst case scenario, we show up at the park, what happens? I’m climbing the monkey bars and my pants fall off into the sand, and I’m hanging there in my underwear. Oh my gosh, and then what would happen? To continue walking through that and to realize ultimately you get to the point where I won’t die. Basically, that’s your warrior’s job, is to keep you alive. Once you get to the point of like, “Oh, well, I would drop down and pull my pants up, and then continue playing,” okay, so you wouldn’t die, you would survive that, and you would move on and everything would be okay.

Having a healthy relationship with anxiety is huge, it can get you really far with life, and I can tell you as a parent who has older kids at this point. My 17-year-old, she’s already finished two years of college, she’s about to go wait for her second two years, she’s going to do a semester abroad, and she has anxiety that comes along for the ride with her, and I can see a real through line from when she was very young investing in this process of doing it anxious, do it scared, open up and create space for anxiety to come along with you while you do these things, that’s been game changing for my kids. It’s really yielded a lot of dividends.

Will: Wow. No, it sounds like it. I love that approach. Anxiety is also somewhat built-in as parents, right, because we now have these kids who not only do we have to raise, which we’re doing, but something bad could happen, God forbid, right? So there’s always this anxiety there. A lot of us have partners or we’re married and have spouses, and anxiety can also build, right? When one parent gets anxious, the other one can get anxious, and then the kids are there and they’re like ah, what’s [crosstalk]–

Rachel: It’s contagious. Yes.

Will: It can be contagious. Yes. How do you view your partner or the relationship with your partner? Not you particularly, but how should parents view that? Is it a partnership? Is it a relationship? What’s that balance, and how do you communicate those types of things when you’re feeling anxious? I know I asked a lot, but I’m just throwing it over the wall to you there.

Rachel: Co-parenting, everything, how does it work? [laughs]

Will: And go.

Rachel: I think all of the things that we talked about with the gentle parenting piece also apply to the co-parenting piece. The beautiful thing about gentle parenting is that it’s not actually about parenting, it’s about being in relationship with another human being. All of that stuff still applies like being aware of what’s going on within you, being in control of how you show up, and connecting with another person authentically without trying to control or change them. All of these things are the same things that make co-parenting relationships affective and feel good.

It’s really all the same things. I think being clear on who you are. Sometimes when we feel like we want to grow in a certain area in a coupled co-parenting relationship, we feel like we have to go there together in equal step. I would invite parents to actually be okay with each of you investing in yourselves and growing in your own ways. Because you’re in connection, it’s unavoidable that it will affect your co-parent as well. We talked about anxiety as contagious, so is personal growth.

As you grow and you work on things and you evolve, that does, of course, impact and affect your co-parent, but to not be actively trying to change them or believe that you have to do everything in an identical way because the thing about a partnership is that you both bring different things to the table and your children benefit from that diversity of things that you each bring.

Will: Absolutely. That’s important to keep in mind because often, I’ll see parents in their head saying, oh, well, I know the right way to do it, this is how to do it. Then, their spouse does a different way, and you’re right, it’s somewhat their different strengths, weaknesses to each approach, right, and by combining them and by co-parenting, you can have the most success.

The one area that I hear a lot of are when you see relationships that don’t end up working and there’s separation, it’s often not about the kids. They love the kids, they’re parenting the kids, and almost too independently without finding the time or the place to come together. Can you talk about that aspect? How do you build a relationship with your spouse while still trying to juggle all the balls of parenting?

Rachel: Yes. I think one of the most effective ways to do it is go to the two extreme ends. First, you want to have some boundaries in place that are like no-goes in your family. For example, in our family, we don’t hit kids ever. There would be no scenario in which either of us would ever hit our kids. You got to go all the way down to the least common denominator until you find that place where you can agree on some of those bottom boundaries.

Then, dream up the other side like what are our values? What are our dreams for our family? What are our dreams for our children? That’s true whether you are married or not married, what’s our ideal vision of how we would show up for our children? I think one thing that’s really helpful at releasing a lot of the pressure is to acknowledge and accept and be aware of the fact that you don’t create a human when you raise a child.

A child is born with their own brain wiring and genetic coding and given spirit and whatever things you believe, they are born a whole human, and your job is to just love them and be in healthy connection with them.

Yet you do not create the human, so they’re not a lump of clay for you to mold. That can actually relieve a lot of pressure from this notion that I see a lot, particularly in the US, where parents believe that they directly create the human. Like I input some things and then it spits out a human on the other side, and the studies show us time and time again that’s just not how it works.

You can release the pressure of doing everything perfectly such that you’re creating a perfect human because then if the human starts to not be your definition of human, you might start to blame your co-parent or blame yourself, but actually, they’re their own person. They get to choose how they show up in the world. They get to choose in what directions they grow. Acknowledging that can release a lot of the pressure that creates a lot of conflict.

Will: I like that. Yes, that absolutely makes sense. When you’re dealing with parents or working with parents, you could go either way with this, do you see traits that successful parents have or traits that unsuccessful parents have, unsuccessful meaning the relationship didn’t work out? Do you see either one or the other or both? I’m curious just what you’ve seen or experienced there.

Rachel: Yes, I think that when people really focus a lot of their energy on their own personal growth and health and wellbeing, paradoxically, you wouldn’t necessarily think this is the case, they are more able to meet each other in a healthy, happy, fruitful space and meet their children in a healthy, happy, fruitful space. When parents get fixated on fixing the other person or fixing their kid or trying to control other people is the path to nowhere.

The more people are focused on controlling other people, even if it’s for their own good, that tends to not lead to a really great place. Whereas if they’re focused on what’s going on inside them and how they’re going to show up and what they need and then how to connect with these other humans in their lives fully accepting who they are and where they are right now, that’s this sweet spot for really nurturing healthy relationships that feel good for everybody that’s involved.

Will: Makes a lot of sense. Yes, don’t try and fix the other person. Focus on yourself and–

Rachel: Yes.

Will: I like all that. I want to ask one last question before I let you go, and going totally different direction, well, not totally different, but I want to talk about allowance, how you view allowance, and what age you’d recommend that and kind of let you run with that a little. Yes.

Rachel: Yes. It’s a great question. Okay, so one of the things I talk a lot about is personal finance which might seem [chuckles] a bit out of left field with my gentle parenting niche, but when I’m talking about gentle parenting, natural homeschooling, simple living, really I’m advocating for this lifestyle, and it’s very privileged and naive to pretend like money is not a part of that because it is. Money is a tool that allows you to live the life that’s more fully in alignment with your values. I think that imparting how to do that in a healthy way is a huge gift that you can give to your children.

An allowance can certainly be a tool for doing that. I don’t think there’s a perfect set of really simple clearcut criteria, but essentially, when my kid wants to start buying things on their own, that’s when the right time is to set up an allowance. The big hot button issue of allowance is do you connect it to chores? Do you not connect it to chores? I am a fan of not connecting it to chores because I don’t get paid for chores. You don’t get– [chuckles] We all contribute to the running of our household because we all live in this household, and our contribution matters and we all pitch in together as a team. That doesn’t really have anything to do with money.

I do give my kids a certain amount of money each month, and they have the freedom to use that money to learn about how money works. I think one mistake I think I see a lot of parents making is heavily judging the things that their children choose to spend their money on. If you can view it instead of like I’m giving them this money to buy really high-quality things, instead think of it like this money that I’m giving them is money that I’m paying for them to make all the mistakes and learn all the lessons now while the risk of harm is super low, right?

They don’t have to pay rent, so now is the time for them to trial and error all this stuff with money to learn about saving it and they were trying to save up for this toy but they saw something they want and they bought it. As a parent, I can stand there in the store and be like, “Ooh, I see that you’re really seeing this thing and I’m seeing a lot of excitement on your face. Tell me about what you’re feeling in your body.” My kids know about dopamine, and if they buy something as an impulse purchase and they get home and it breaks the next day, not judging it, no I told you so. Nothing like that.

Just always noticing and wondering. Those are two sentence starters that I love, like, “I’m noticing the disappointment that– I’m seeing it on your face and in your body. I wonder what you could do differently next time. I’m wondering what you learned from that experience,” so it’s not about judging and I’m not heavy-handedly teaching, but I’m giving them the space to firsthand experience all of this. I think allowance can do that for kids.

Will: Yes. Has it always been just a flat amount? It’s not based on, obviously, they do their chores, but can they earn extra money?

Rachel: Yes, absolutely. How we conceptualize it is that I’ll pay you for something that I would pay someone else for. If they come to us and they’re like I really want to save up for this, so can I mow the grass on the really big property that we have with a very steep hill that’s very hard to do? Sure. Yes, absolutely. Even if they’re like five, sure, try it, go for it. We really try to give them a lot of freedom, and they know that the door is open for them to be creative and to be entrepreneurial, and to come up with ideas.

If they say, “Oh, I want to sell popsicles today.” “Great. How much money do you have to purchase the inventory?” It’s January. I might point out, “I’m noticing that it’s pretty cold outside. I know that I don’t usually feel like popsicles when it’s really cold,” but still giving them the freedom to explore it and try it and see what happens and learn from it.

Will: I like that giving the, hey, if I’ll pay for it, I’ll pay you, and you can try it. Then, the language aspect you mentioned also is just so key to everything to communicating to life, but especially with kids. I love those words noticing and wondering, those are just great words.

Rachel: Yes. Oh my gosh. Those are the two sentence starters that I use most, and it can be game changing in your parenting. If you just approach conversations with your kids with, “I’m noticing and I’m wondering,” it removes the power struggle. It removes a lot of the relational stuff that can get in the way when really you’re trying to just share what you notice really and wonder what they noticed and what they got from it and how they’re feeling about it. It just primes the kid and the parent for all this really good stuff to happen.

Will: Wonderful. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you, Rachel, I appreciate you joining us today. Again, you can find Rachel at The Sage Family podcast where, as you just heard, she has a ton of great information, and then also at sagefamily.com. Thank you, Rachel, appreciate it.

Rachel: Thank you so much, Will.

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